HOW TO INTERVIEW (PART 2) (EP.16)

Interviewing for a job is easy. You already know what questions they will ask you and you already have the answers they want to hear (the job description) so really - there should be nothing to talk about when it comes to giving advice on how to interview! Today's special guest Keith George is adamant that you stand up, shake hands, and look the interviewer in the eye and he also explains why 75% of the interview is decided within the first 3 minutes. Join MR CORPO and Keith as they debate the do's and don'ts of interviewing for a job. BONUS SECTION includes tips on your resume and Keith explains why you should never ever no-matter-what use a cover letter. (This is part 2 of the HOW TO INTERVIEW series - Part 1 focuses on the interviewer and the hiring company - so if you are a boss and getting ready to interview people - make sure to check out that episode here).

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

 How To Interview Part 2

 JUSTIN: I'm just a soul whose intentions are good. Hold on, please don't let me be misunderstood.

 

(Intro music)

 

JUSTIN: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Mr. Corpo podcast. Today, we are going to talk about how to interview. Now, I know what you're thinking: if you're an avid listener of the show you think, we've already talked about how to interview. But in that episode we talked about how to interview if you were the hiring manager. Today's episode's gonna be how to interview if you are the candidate. If you are the interviewee. And what's even more confusing about this episode is, we have the same guest on episode to talk about how to interview. Keith George, welcome back to the show.

 

KEITH: Thank you for having me.

 

JUSTIN: You are the first time two-time full episode guest. So...we're super excited about that. And just to remind all our listeners, let me tell you a little bit about Keith. He is a former SVP of Gilt.com. He's a current entrepreneur in New York City. He's the father of three. He's the former truck driver of a Coca Cola delivery truck, if you remember from the last episode. He's a former co-worker of mine. He was one of the most important and fun people I ever worked with, so that was great. And he's also a former part-time male model. That's a lot of formers in there. Are --

 

KEITH: Thank -- thanks for reminding everyone.

 

JUSTIN: Are -- would you say you're a former part-time male model, or can we just say part-time male model? Do you still take work?

 

KEITH: No, not currently. Former. Underline.

 

JUSTIN: Does that mean you can't get work? Or...you'd take work if they called.

 

KEITH: Of course. A hundred percent.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah? Atta boy. Now look, here's the thing about Keith. He's been really successful in the working world. He's hired -- how many would you say? Fifty, 100 people, 200 people?

 

KEITH: Correct, yes.

 

JUSTIN: Yes, hundreds of people. He's also interviewed and worked at different companies. He's worked in the consulting world. He's worked, uh, in the retail world. He's worked in the startup world. He's done everything. So, he covers the full gamut. He's a good person that can help us get insights into this world of interviewing -- not just from the candidate, but hopefully he'll share with us what is the person across the table thinking, and how do you get inside their head and do the right answers so you can have as good of an interview as possible. So I'm just gonna hand it over to Keith and just say, "What's up, Keith?" Tell us about interviewing.

 

KEITH: I think 50 percent of the interview is won or lost before you even show up in the door. And an additional 25 percent of that interview is won or lost within the first one to three minutes.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, tell me about the first minute.

 

KEITH: So, before you even show up, I would split it down into two things, that -- that first 50 percent. One is you and one is how you feel about them. So meaning, from a background standpoint, what is the story that your resume tells? What is the story that you're able to put together? And I don't care if you have -- uh, you're interviewing for an entry-level job and you've been a server in a restaurant, I don't care if you're more senior. What is the story that your resume tells, and how does it apply for the -- the job that you're -- you're interviewing for? And then the other one is a -- is actually more on you, is are you interviewing using a shotgun method, or are you just out there looking for work? Or are you actually being focused? Because if you go into an interview with something you're very passionate about, that's gonna show up right the second you walk in the door.

 

And that leads to the -- the next piece, which I said, as far as that first minute first three minutes. I said in the last podcast, one of the most important things for me as an interviewer is somebody who stands up, looks you in the eye, gives you a firm handshake. That's common courtesy. It's important. And so you have to do it. And people look at -- it's almost like a date. People know within three minutes whether they're -- this date, they're gonna go on a second date or not, usually. Now, of course there's that remaining 25 percent that can be changed one way or another. But for the most part, there's a reason why first impressions are incredibly important, and they're always been important. And I think just understanding that before you even get into the meat of the interview is critically important.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, so you just said a lot. So let me just kinda unpack that for a minute. First of all, as I said last time: standing up during an interview. I've never done that.

 

KEITH: Not standing up, but standing up to meet someone.

 

JUSTIN: No, no, I've never even done that.

 

KEITH: When someone -- when a friend comes up to you at a -- at a restaurant, do you just sit there and say hello, or do you stand up and shake their hand and embrace them? Or a stranger --

 

JUSTIN: Honestly, it depends on how much I like them or not. If I love them, I usually stand up and hug them and give them a kiss on the cheek. If I am indifferent and it's a friend of a friend, I usually sit there and kind of just like, what's up, like a wave. And then if it's someone I don't really know, I'm just kinda like, mm, like I nod. So, if I'm in an interview, I don't know this other person. But you're telling me, stand up, hold my hand out, and start shaking.

 

KEITH: Common respect and courtesy are important.

 

JUSTIN: But now, let me just ask this. 05:00 What if you're a candidate interviewing for a job and you have a really wimpy or really wet handshake, then what?

 

KEITH: The easiest thing to do is to --

 

JUSTIN: Fist bump?

 

KEITH: No. Give your -- give a family member or a friend a handshake and say, is this a dead fish or not. And practice.

 

JUSTIN: Practice makes perfect.

 

KEITH: It's incredibly important. And I think, you know, if you go back to our parents' generation, what they would say is, "You need to wear a suit to an interview." No, no. I'm not saying that.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

KEITH: Uh, you -- for me, the attire should match the people that you're interviewing with, and maybe a slight -- a little bit nicer than what they're wearing. But for the most part, don't go interview at a -- at a software company in a -- in a suit and tie, because they're gonna say he's not a -- you're not a cultural fit. However, again, I come back to -- there are basic common courtesies around actually greeting people, looking them in the -- looking them in the eye, that are important.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, so you're just jump -- you're jumping all over here, but alright. So we agree, stand up, shake their hands. I think first impressions count. You talked about what do you wear to the interview. Tell me a little bit more about this. I think this is a tricky setting. You actually don't work there. You've actually probably never been in that office. You have no idea what everyone's wearing. What do you wear to the interview? How do you get dressed? How do you triangulate to make sure you're making the right impression? Because you know, for me working in the fashion industry, it's a little bit off-putting when someone comes in and they're overdressed. There is such a thing as being overdressed.

 

KEITH: Absolutely.

 

JUSTIN: And then it's harder to project that person into your team cause they don't look the part, or they're not dressed the part. So what would your advice be for people when they're thinking about, what am I gonna lay out the day before?

 

KEITH: Think of the recruiter as your ally. The recruiter in a company --

 

JUSTIN: Oh, great point.

 

KEITH: -- wants to place people. The recruiter in the company is not gonna bring you in to waste time. And so this person is your ally. They want you to get hired. They don't wanna have to go and do more resume searches. So use them. Ask them the question: how do people dress? What do you see -- how do -- how to people show up that's most successful? And it does -- goes back to much more, again, uh, than just the dress. But just, what do I need to do to show up here and make sure that I'm appropriate?

 

JUSTIN: Fascinating, alright. So you just said something I've never thought of, which is: use the resources. That recruiter is neutral, and so not only ask them a general questions, but ask specific. So say, when they say, what should I wear, and they say business casual, you can say, "Can you be a little bit more specific than that?" Are people wearing button-down shirts? Are they wearing, you know, sweatshirts? Are they wearing shorts? Get to the details so you actually look good.

 

KEITH: That is correct. And in most cases, I would actually say that a recruiter is less than neutral. Their job is to place people, and use that to your advantage. They -- often times there may be, you know, a massive casting call. But let's just -- as you progress in your career, they're not bringing everyone who just sends a resume in. They're bringing people in who they think might be a fit. They want to place these people, and use them as -- as a resource.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright. So recruiters are your friend. That's a great insight. I wanna go back to something you said at the beginning, which is: how prepared are you for the interview? So you talked about the idea of, are you out there just interviewing at ten companies, and you're just showing up and being like, I'm just gonna talk about myself? Or are you showing up because I love this company, I've done research, I've got different facts and things at my disposal? Because when I was thinking about interviewing, here's the thing about interviewing: it should be the easiest thing in the world, because if I tell you that you already know all the questions, you also know all the answers, cause the answers are in the job description, they've told you what they want to hear.

 

KEITH: Of course.

 

JUSTIN: And then you've got unlimited time to prepare for the interview. And then you've got two to three to five to ten to 15 years of experience to draw on, to find two or three good answers? There's no excuse for not nailing an interview. Do you -- do you feel the same way?

 

KEITH: I do. There is no excuse. A mentor of mine, Kevin Ryan, who's the founder of Gilt, told me one thing. He said, "I don't understand how people approach the -- the job search process because you would never just go to a college that sent you an application or said hey, come to this college. You think about the colleges you wanna go to, you do research, you talk to friends, you find out the places where you might fit in and where your academics are gonna be, you know, in line with the other students. And then you go out and you visit them and you then apply to the schools you wanna go to."

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah.

 

KEITH: The idea that you're just going to do a shotgun method of just any place around -- it just doesn't work. And so it's not about just showing up prepared to be able to -- to give the exact answer that they wanna hear. You need to be prepared for yourself as well. And so the key questions that you need to ask yourself before you go into this is, what makes me the right fit, is this the right fit for me? And when you go in there at it from both, you're interviewing them and they're interviewing you, it completely changes the -- the dynamic of the interview.

 

JUSTIN: When I'm going in -- I -- I agree with you on this idea of you should be interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. And I wanna save that kind of till the end. But I wanna talk about 10:00 when you're going into that interview, what do you have to be prepared with? Can you just have two or three standing anecdotes that just work for 99 percent of interviews, or -- what do you need to prepare? Like, are you answering every question? Or are you actually, like a politician, pivoting from whatever their question is into your two or three answers?

 

KEITH: About. There's the tangible and the intangible. So, from the tangible standpoint, you mentioned this earlier, around -- they've told you what the job description is, they've told you exactly those skills. You need to be prepared for how your skills directly translate. An example of exactly how you can deliver on what they're asking for. Absolutely, 100 percent. But that's not good enough. What you need is one to two intangible examples that show your leadership, your capacity to manage, your capacity to work well with others. And you need to be prepared to speak in that way. And I think it -- it is a skill that doesn't show up like a politician that say, let me take your question and redirect and now here's the reason why you know, you need to an -- I wanna get this point across. But at the same time, you need to be able to come across with those intangible components. And they may not always be asked, because some people ask open-ended questions around leadership and give you that opportunity. Some people just go straight into the meat.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, okay, wait. Let me just mention one pet peeve I have. People come into interviews and they don't have specific examples. They come into the interviews and they just float on these generalities and they're like, yeah, I was on the team that worked on this project and it went really well. And I'm sitting there as the -- as the person that's interviewing them, and I'm like, be specific. Tell me exactly what you did. So I would wanna say, for candidates out there, the more specific you can be, the clearer picture you can paint for me of what your role was and what you did, the more likely I am to remember you or be impressed by that, rather than just these generalities. Would you agree with that?

 

KEITH: I absolutely agree. And I -- I also wanna make clear that that goes for both tangible and intangibles. I think sometimes people think about the tangible examples that are specific about this project. But also the intangibles are in leadership -- it does -- just because leadership is a broad topic, doesn't mean that you get to be broad in that area. You need to show specific examples about how you demonstrated those characteristics.

 

JUSTIN: And I think the whole thing is -- the last thing I'll say on this topic is, have short, punchy, specific examples. You need a few of those in your pocket where you just can draw them out and just say, oh, that reminds me of this, and I did this, and this happened, and then stop talking and let them ask the next question.

 

KEITH: I'd like to add one thing.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

KEITH: Which is a baseline passion for what you're doing.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

KEITH: And I'm not saying that you have to be the most passionate about being a business analyst in the specific role at this time. But if you're interviewing in an industry and a role that you aren't passionate about anything, then we have a problem. And I thin you've already lost the interview before you go there. Even if you get the job, you lost.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, well --

 

KEITH: Even if you get the job.

 

JUSTIN: No, that's interesting. I've -- I've made that mistake a few times, because you know, I always struggle with, am I an artist, am I a corporate person, and you meet the recruiters and they're really nice, you're in a job interview and they're nice, and you kinda get wrapped up and all of a sudden they're like, well, they're like, what do you wanna do in five years. You're like, well, maybe I wanna be a screen printer and I wanna like, write books, and you're talking and you're thinking you're just having an honest exchange. And it's like, this person doesn't want your life story, and they don't wanna know that you're struggling with things. They wanna know you're passionate about what you're about to do, and you're gonna be a soldier for them, right?

 

KEITH: That -- absolutely. And so I have an analogy that says -- around marriage, they say, the sure -- most surefire way to not marry the person of your dreams is to go ahead and marry someone that is not the person of your dreams. Because you've basically sacrificed yourself from the opportunity. And so the same thing goes for a job. Why --

 

JUSTIN: I don't know if that's smart, or the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

KEITH: It may be. You've let somewhere find -- no. But it's as if, why are you there? Why are you interviewing for this job? Now listen, people need to put food on the table, understood.

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

KEITH: All of that.

 

JUSTIN: People wanna feel wanted, someone to call them --

 

KEITH: They wanna feel wanted, etcetera. All those things are different, right, you gotta pay your rent. And I'm -- but we're not, kinda, going there right now. What I'm saying is -- is that, if you go interview for a job and convince them that you get things done and that you, you know, show up on time and you're all these things, right? Okay, great, but they're gonna hire you, but then all of a sudden, you have to do that job. And so what are we doing, because life is short, and so to me, if you can communicate all those things and people can all love you and they're going to hire you and you're gonna feel wanted and all that stuff, but on day one, you show up --

 

JUSTIN: And you're bored already --

 

KEITH: -- and then you're there. And then you're not at your dream job. And I don't believe that there's any one job that is always gonna be someone's dream. Because you'll get in there and you'll work and all of a sudden your dreams will change. But what's critically important to me is they're heading in a general direction that fits many of the -- the check boxes of your life.

 

JUSTIN: 15:03 Okay, alright. That's fair. Now, to that point about figuring out if this is the job you want, what questions would you recommend people ask the company, or the interviewers? What are questions that can -- and what should the approach be? Are they trying to sound smart? Are they trying to glean information from them, to help them make a decision? Or are they just trying to fill time, to fill the last 30 minutes? Like, I think it's a tricky time because sometimes you're -- you're there, you're prepared to answer all the questions, and they say, what questions do you have? And I feel like more often than not, people come back with the most generic comments. They're like, well, tell me what you think about the company. And I sit there and I go, wow, that's the best you could do? So what would you recommend people should ask the interviewer? Like, what makes them sound smart or what comes across as, hey, this person's really thinking about it?

 

KEITH: I agree that people who try to ask a question that's almost too smart is a challenge, or a problem.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, okay.

 

KEITH: A great example would be if you ask a director of finance about the overarching global strategy of retailers and everything like --

 

JUSTIN: Right, blah blah blah blah blah, okay.

 

KEITH: It's just -- this is just -- all you wanna do is hear me talk, so you can think that you asked a smart question. So that is something that -- that I would shy away from. Where I tend to go to is around the people in the organization. Tell me about your team. Tell me about the people who've been successful. Tell me about how they're successful.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

KEITH: Not because, you know, I necessarily need to fit that mode, but just -- I wanna understand how you're -- you're gonna fit into the -- into this culture. Because people don't quit their job because of their title, their pay, and frankly, sometimes what they do, they usually quit their job because of their manager. And so -- and the manager sets the tone. And so often times if you say, "Tell me about you and your leadership style," of course they're gonna say, "Oh, they're -- you know, I'm the greatest."

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

KEITH: But if you ask about the team around you, and what makes them successful, then you kinda find out who this person thinks is successful, and if there's somebody who says -- and I'll just use an exam -- an example, so you know, Bill, he sleeps under his desk every night, he's here seven days a week and I really love that about him. Then you're like, oh okay, well, the person that's gonna be successful here is gonna be somebody who is going to basically just lay down and give up all of their life for this job. Now, maybe that's what you're willing to do because it's something that you're passionate about. I'm not sure. But you need to understand and be able to pick that apart.

 

JUSTIN: Oh, that's a great point. I didn't see where you were going with that question, cause I thought you're gonna get generic answers from the boss, but you're saying, depending on what that boss describes as what they like or don't like or the attribute that comes to mind --

 

KEITH: Or who's successful --

 

JUSTIN: Okay, alright, that's interesting, yeah. That's one I've always struggled with. Um, you know, I think the thing about interviews is, the other thing I'd wanna say is, it takes some practice. You know, I think for some of us, I know in my career, I was at Gap, Inc for 11 years. And I didn't do a lot of interviewing, almost no interviewing. And when I went to do interviews, it was kind of a shock to the system. And I remember the first one I did, it was with, uh, J. Crew, and I got on the phone and it was for like a vice president of something, and I got on the phone and within about three minutes I quickly realized, "I am wholly and totally unprepared for this." Basically I didn't know what to say. They just looked at me and they asked the most basic question and I just sat there and I was like, "Oh, um, maybe, uh..." I must have sounded like the biggest idiot in the world. And we kinda hung up the phone, we walked away from each other. I think they never called me, I never called them, the recruiter never called me back. I think we all just agreed to pretend it never happened.

 

And the reason I bring that up is, looking back on it now, you need to practice a little bit. And I don't know whether you would recommend people practice with their friends, with their family, or would you say, do you go out on some interviews that maybe aren't gonna be your favorite job, just to get the practice of people asking you questions, and also, talking about yourself. It's not always a natural skill for people to have to put themselves in the brightest terms in the shortest amount of time possible. So what are your thoughts on that in terms of practice and getting ready for an interview if you haven't done it in a long time?

 

KEITH: I would recommend against going on practice interviews. And here's why. One is, I feel like it's disrespectful to the people you're interviewing with if you're really not interested in that. And secondly, they'll -- they can often times see -- see through it. I think that what I would prefer a candidate to do is spend more time thinking about what they want, talking with friends about what's important to them, asking them -- their friends questions and having their friends ask them questions about, not necessarily, let's sit down and role play I'm the interviewer, but why are you actually interested in this? Because again, I come back to this: 75 percent of the job interview is done within three minutes. I'm telling you people will never admit this, but they make that decision, they look at that resume, they seem them and again whether it's important to you that someone stands up and looks you in the eye 20:01 or not is -- that's a little bit beside the point. It is, people decide what they wanna do very quickly. So for you coming in, knowing exactly what you want, knowing why this job is important to you, all of those things, that is the basis for a good interview. You're right. People are gonna throw you a curveball. People may ask you, you know, a trick question, all those things, how many gum balls would fit you know, fill the United States and all those things --

 

JUSTIN: Right, right.

 

KEITH: And to me, part of that says, the people who ask those questions may not be the people you wanna work for anyway. Unless you like that type -- sort of -- sort of thing, and then you're gonna bond over it. And so to me the preparation is less about, let me practice for this specific curveball question that I may get in an interview, and more actually, do a -- a larger deep dive on myself and what makes me interested in any one thing. Because that passion is what will come through.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, I mean I think you're asking a lot of these candidates. I feel like a lot of people that are 20 years old and 30 years old don't think as deeply as you've just asked them to.

 

KEITH: I think you're correct. But I mentor a lot of college kids and what I tell them is, I say, "Hey, just so we're -- we're clear, you don't have a house, a job, or a mortgage, or kids, or anything. You have time to go sit in a coffee shop for 30 minutes and write down ten things that are important to you."

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, but I'm still figuring it out. I mean --

 

KEITH: It's not that you're not -- that you need to figure it out. But just -- I could answer five things that I think are important to you right now, if you asked me. And I'm not even you.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, okay, okay. Alright, I think it's fair. So -- so let me just say one -- one other thing. If you had to boil this all down and tell the candidate, here's your one job when you go into an interview, here's the one thing you have to get right, here's the most important thing, what's the one thing you want them to nail? Like, what is their task? They're going into this interview, they're going into battle, they're going into this conversation, what's the one thing above everything else, just get this right? What would that one thing be?

 

KEITH: Show passion for the job.

 

JUSTIN: Okay, speak loudly, or move your hands around like I do, like this?

 

KEITH: No.

 

JUSTIN: No. Just be passionate.

 

KEITH: Be passionate about the job.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. I think that's a great answer. Be passionate. Let them know you care. Because even if you're not perfect, and the chances are you're not perfect, if you have passion and the will to want to work hard and do this, you can see past a lot of the other problems.

 

KEITH: I'll give you an example.

 

JUSTIN: Okay.

 

KEITH: So Michael Ovitz, who is the famous -- he was Disney, but he was the founder of CAA --

 

JUSTIN: Oh yeah, he was a failure at Disney, but he was good at CAA. Yes.

 

KEITH: CAA. Founded Creative Artists -- Artists Agency. He started at I believe, William Morris Agency, straight out of college, in the mail room. And why did he work in the mail room at this agency? Because he got to deliver the mail to the agents, and in doing so he built relationships with them, and within a year was promoted out of the mail room, became an agent. Six years later, he went off to found CAA. The training program now at CAA is one of the hardest training programs to get in because obviously, lot of people wanna be an agent, right? Talent agent, movie agent, etcetera. The training program at CAA is called The Mail Room. And so what I wanna make sure everybody understands is that if you do that internal deep dive and understand where you wanna go, that passion will drive you to heights that you would never be able to achieve in other industries and other fields.

 

JUSTIN: Wow. I mean, I was here just ready to talk about interviews, but you just did like a whole life plan lesson. That was incredible, wow. Great words. Um, I wanna move us over into the bonus section right now. Bonus section! Bonus section! Come on, Keith. Bonus section! Bonus section! Bonus section, I love you! And Keith, you're alright, too.

 

On today's bonus section, I wanna talk about resumes. Just a minute or two, we didn't prepare anything for this, Keith, but I just wanna talk about resumes, cause they're the thing that are gonna get you to the interview. Now, my rules for resume would be very simple: it has to fit on one page, there's no way around that, I don't care who you are, it has to fit on one page. And there can be no misspellings. And third, formatting matters, in that I wanna see at least 50 percent white space on the page. Meaning, the less you have on it, the better. So those would be my three things. That would be one page, no misspellings, and the third is white space and formatting. What would you say for resumes?

 

KEITH: Action verbs. Critically important to me. And I would agree: fewer words is better. Take the resume, cut out 50 percent of the words on the -- on the page.

 

JUSTIN: People -- when they do the resume, they try and fit every single thing in. They write the same thing under every single job description, and it's like, trust me, here's the thing about your resume: actually, nobody's reading your resume. That's the dirty secret about resumes. No one's reading it.

 

KEITH: They're looking for key words that can prompt a -- a certain question.

 

JUSTIN: Yeah, and that's it. And that's it.

 

KEITH: Exactly, exactly, exactly. The rest comes down to you and how you communicate that.

 

JUSTIN: 25:00 Exactly. And as quickly as possible, remove all your summer jobs selling cotton candy at the pier. People for some reason love to keep these jobs on there at the bottom as if the more jobs you had, the better.

 

KEITH: Unless you're applying to a cotton candy company.

 

JUSTIN: Unless you're doing that, cause that would show passion, that you did it when you were young, right?

 

KEITH: Because you love sweets.

 

JUSTIN: Alright, well that's it for the bonus section. Resume, here's the thing: nobody reads it, the less words the better, action verbs.

 

KEITH: I also have one thing.

 

JUSTIN: Yes?

 

KEITH: I just gave a career seminar at University of Virginia.

 

JUSTIN: Humble brag, humble brag.

 

KEITH: And -- I didn't go to Princeton like you. That's not a humble brag. By the way, UVA was my wife's safety school, so there's no bragging in there.

 

JUSTIN: Humble brag. Go ahead.

 

KEITH: They asked about cover letters, and I told them, my ideal cover letter was zero words on zero pages. No one reads -- no one reads cover letters.

 

JUSTIN: Hundred percent agree. Hate cover letters, hate cover letters, never use cover letters, don't like it at all. Too many words, too much information. Don’t like it. No to cover letters.

 

KEITH: Done.

 

JUSTIN: We agree on that. I have one other question before we leave the bonus section: this is actually, could be touchy topic, I don't know if you wanna lift the veil for us, but when you're a part-time male model, do you have to interview for the jobs, and is that more verbal, or more just kind of like how you look?

 

KEITH: Will we ever get away from this subject?

 

JUSTIN: No, no, no. But seriously, have you had to interview for a part-time male model job?

 

KEITH: No interviewing.

 

JUSTIN: Just, you send your headshot?

 

KEITH: They send it in and you show up and that's the deal.

 

JUSTIN: Is your male model -- is your part -- sorry. Your part-time male modeling headshot, is it from the neck up, or is it from the waist up, or -- you're a pretty in-shape guy. No? It's from the behind? Or what is -- what is going on here? Clothes on? Half off?

 

KEITH: I am no longer in that field currently.

 

JUSTIN: But you are open if someone needs to hire someone. You said that at the beginning.

 

KEITH: A hundred percent. I got three kids to put through college.

 

JUSTIN: I would be, too. Alright. So no tips for part-time male models out there on how to interview, right?

 

KEITH: That's not my bag.

 

JUSTIN: Alright. Well, uh, look. That's it for today's episode. Keith, thanks for coming in.

 

KEITH: Thanks for having me.

 

JUSTIN: You're welcome. Anytime. And is there anything you wanna update anyone on? Anything like, you know, businesses, kids, like, anything else, like, nothing?

 

KEITH: No, I think I'm good.

 

JUSTIN: Okay. That sounds good. And as always, we wanna thank Rob Schulte, our producer, for putting another good episode together. And that's it. We'll call it a wrap.

 

(music)

 

JUSTIN: How many times do you think I can make fun of Keith for being a part-time male model during this episode?

 

ROB: Oo.

 

JUSTIN: Not enough. Not enough.

 

27:54